Dot Da Genius on Kid Cudi, Kanye, the possibility of a producers’ strike and why he wants to ‘completely overhaul’ the current music industry business model

MBW’s World’s Greatest Producers series sees us interview – and celebrate – some of the outstanding talents working in studios across the decades. Dot Da Genius is best known as the producer of Kid Cudi’s biggest hits, but his CV – and ambition – is much deeper and wider than that. World’s Greatest Producers is supported by Hipgnosis Song Management.

2009 was a very good year for Oladipo Omishore. In one 12-month period, the producer and songwriter – better known as Dot Da Genius – graduated from university, became a dad and had the first monster hit of his career with Kid Cudi’s Day ‘N’ Nite, which went to No.3 on the US Hot 100 and rewrote rap’s sonic template.

But it also marked the year when he got serious about the music industry.

“I was working security for Vice magazine at the time,” he remembers. “Day ‘N’ Nite would play on the radio and I’m telling them, ‘I made this beat, we made this song’. And they were like, ‘If you made this song, you would not be here working security!’

“I had no idea where the money came from or how to get it; my introduction to the world of publishing was abrupt. You don’t understand where the revenue streams are coming from and the terms that the publishers come up with…”

As a diligent student, Omishore hit the library to educate himself about how the industry worked – something that has stood him in good stead on his journey from the streets of Brooklyn to the penthouse suite of hip-hop production, working with the likes of Kanye West, Nas, Eminem, Travis Scott and Lil Nas X.

It’s his enduring collaboration with Cudi that has really made his mark though. They met when both were just starting out and Cudi even lived with the producer and his family for two years in Brooklyn (“My parents came from Nigeria, they’re very strict in some ways and I’m sure that was a shock for him. But it didn’t take long for my parents to feel as if, ‘OK, this is one of ours’”), helping to construct an unbreakable bond that has produced classic songs such as Marijuana and Tequila Shots, and even spawned an alternative rock band, WZRD, and a film score, for Cudi’s Entergalactic Netflix animated special.

“We’ve seen each other through many different moments in our lives; it forged this friendship and this trust.”

“When you meet somebody before they have their moment, it’s a more genuine kind of connection,” Omishore says. “Because it’s two people that aren’t trying to capitalize off one another, they’re just chasing a journey. We’ve seen each other through many different moments in our lives; it forged this friendship and this trust.”

Dot Da Genius (the name is no hip-hop brag; it’s part childhood nickname given for his intellectual prowess, part homage to Jay-Z’s S. Carter sneaker collection) credits his father with making him take piano lessons as a kid and opening his eyes to the idea that music could be a profession. Inspired by the likes of Pharrell and Timbaland (“Characters that were right there next to the artist”), he began forging beats in his bedroom while he studied electrical engineering at NYU and is eyeing a future as an entrepreneur as well as a producer.

He has his own production company, Headbanga Muzik Group, and recently formed a new publishing partnership with OTM Music, the boutique publishing company with a big reputation for placements with the likes of Apple, Netflix and EA.

“OTM Music proactively partners with world-building producers who are at the center of culture, and Dot Da Genius literally sets the platinum standard,” says OTM SVP of Creative/Head of North America Melissa Woods Maskan, who says they plan to connect the producer with creatives across music, film, TV, advertising and video games.

“The possibilities are really endless and span across every musical genre and media platform,” adds OTM CEO/founder Alex Sheridan. “In one sense, he’s a legendary creator and hitmaker, and in another, he’s just at the beginning of his story with so much ahead.”

With Entergalactic having expanded his musical horizons (“It was like discovering a new muscle”), Omishore says he wants to work on more film music and also collaborate with musicians beyond the hip-hop scene.

“I don’t just fancy myself as a rap producer,” he grins. “I can step into any space and add value, contribute and do something new that still feels like me.”

First though, it’s time for him to sit down in LA and talk to MBW about Cudi, Kanye and why the music industry’s business model needs a remix…

WHAT MADE YOU WANT TO DO THE DEAL WITH OTM?

As a young kid coming from the inner city of Brooklyn, when you have all this legalese being thrown around and you’re meeting all these different people, it’s impossible to be guided right or even know what’s important.

“These are the things you have to spend years in the industry learning.”

These are the things you have to spend years in the industry learning. After doing this for 15 years, I’ve had the pleasure of working with many major [companies] and, although they have their benefits, this was the right time for me to partner with somebody with a very specific vision and keen understanding of what I am as a music creator.

WAS YOUR CHEMISTRY WITH KID CUDI INSTANT?

Our energy and our synergy was almost instantaneous. Cudi is a very charming, very personable guy. He is from Cleveland, so the way he looked at the world was different, the way he talked was different.

“Musically, when we first got together, [Kid Cudi] was way more advanced in his vision of himself and what he wanted to be as an artist.”

Musically, when we first got together, he was way more advanced in his vision of himself and what he wanted to be as an artist. I had just started really taking producing seriously.

But he saw the potential in what I was doing, he saw my capabilities and the greatness in me and I saw the greatness in him, it was obvious. But did I ever think it would be like this? No, that was never a thought.

WHEN YOU WERE MAKING DAY ‘N’ NITE, DID YOU REALIZE WHAT AN INFLUENTIAL RECORD IT WOULD BECOME?

No sir! Cudi had an idea, he felt it had the potential to be a big record. But it was just another day in the studio, another day of trying to make a good song. That’s one of the beautiful things about this business: you just do you, and the world decides it loves that – and that was my first experience with it.

I remember when it was happening, it was hard to gauge – especially as a kid with no analytics, no data to compare it against – but you can feel that excitement and that energy. You could feel it in real life and on the internet, which was just starting to be what it is now.

NO ONE WAS EXPECTING THE TWO OF YOU TO FORM AN ALT-ROCK BAND. WHY DID YOU DO THAT?

That was another brainchild of Cudi’s. We’d just come off doing [2010 album] Man On The Moon II and he was like, ‘They keep comparing me to every other rapper that’s out right now, and I’m more than just a rapper’. He’s a big fan of the Pixies, Nirvana, bands like that – and that was him wanting to flex a different musical muscle.

He’s supremely confident in his abilities and he just hit me one day like, ‘Yo, we’re going to start a rock band’. Me being a black kid from Brooklyn, rock wasn’t my forte, it wasn’t something I was naturally drawn to. I knew some of the Pixies songs that existed in movies. But it gave me time to dive in, do my research, really know the names and the faces behind some of the songs I’d heard and their stories.

It was quite a time. Looking back on it, it did well but it wasn’t received like his rap records were, so it was like it was a failure at the time. But now the vinyl’s being sold for $1000 and kids are asking for a sequel, to let us know that we did something right!

IS IT VERY DIFFERENT WORKING WITH CUDI TO THE OTHER BIG NAMES YOU’VE PRODUCED?

Yeah. Cudi’s always trying to evolve and do something new, he’s always trying to go left. I’ve lived in that world for so long, sometimes when I go to other artists, there are adjustments that need to be made. But over the years, I’ve learned how to listen to artists and try to find out where they are, what excites them and try to give them something that still sounds like me but in that world.

This whole experience has been like a dance; I’ll meet a new artist, it starts with a conversation, they’ll play me some vibes, I’ll play some vibes and then I try to triangulate where we can meet in the middle.

YOU WERE A BIG FAN OF KANYE WEST AS A TEENAGER. WHAT WAS IT LIKE WORKING WITH HIM?

It’s one of those full-circle moments, because Kanye was somebody I saw when I was in college, when I didn’t even know this was possible. Seeing Kanye continue to one-up the music industry was very inspiring to me.

“when we finally got the chance to work for him, it was an out-of-body experience moment.”

So, when we finally got the chance to work for him, it was an out-of-body experience moment. I got a chance to tell him, ‘You’re the reason why I started producing’ and it was cool to see how the man works and what excites him musically. Have we kept in touch? No! [Laughs]

HOW IMPORTANT IS COMMERCIAL SUCCESS TO YOU?

What I’ve noticed is, if we do our jobs as musicians and the music resonates with the time and strikes a chord, those things will come with it. It almost has no choice.

When we made Day ‘N’ Night, we didn’t do it with a label, it was just two dudes in a room. We uploaded it to the internet and the people were like, ‘We like this, this sounds different’. It’s a democracy in that way. Maybe now it’s not quite the same, with the amount of music being uploaded on a day-to-day basis, it’s very easy for good music to get lost. But in 2009, it was more democratic.

WOULD YOU LIKE TO BE THE NEXT RAP MOGUL?

Absolutely. You have no choice but to be. As you gain seniority in the industry, you gain the trust of artists and execs and there’s no better way to implement that than being a mogul, helping other artists achieve their visions, helping our producers decide what type of producer they want to be. That’s where I am in my career right now.

Some producers want to stop at the music, that’s all they care about and that’s where it starts and ends. And then you see the producers who’ve gone on to more. Guys like Pharrell – he made himself a brand as a producer, started selling clothing and doing all these other things, rather than just producing. He started his label, he has artists and he’s helping other people get their vision out. That’s literally the blueprint.

DOES THE MUSIC INDUSTRY APPRECIATE PRODUCERS AND SONGWRITERS AS MUCH AS IT SHOULD?

No. If you respect what a producer does and somebody gives you a great piece of music, you shouldn’t be shy to compensate that person. But the way this industry’s set up, it’s about who can retain the biggest piece of the proverbial pie.

Even before an artist or a label knows a song could generate a lot of money, they’re trying to position themselves to own as much of it as possible. There’s nothing wrong with that, but you definitely want it to be equitable for everybody.

“eventually, enough’s going to be enough. Somebody’s going to try to create a union to have a strike.”

That’s the fight we were seeing with the [Hollywood] strike. And if they keep the value on the music front and they don’t want to share the publishing or master recording rights, it’s going to create what we’re seeing now: dissent and then eventually, enough’s going to be enough. Somebody’s going to try to create a union to have a strike. I can’t imagine – and this is coming from a producer who’s been comfortable for some years now – how hard it is for most producers to get a song that really sustains you for a time.

Most of the time with a song that’s generating a lot of money, most of it goes to the label and it shouldn’t be that way. We shouldn’t be seeing these stories of labels making more than artists, that makes no sense.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT HAVING MULTIPLE CO-WRITERS AND CO-PRODUCERS ON TRACKS?

That speaks to the way music is being created in this day and age. It’s very much a collaborative thing, which is beautiful for the results that we see, but it makes for more difficult realizations on the back end. I come from the school of, ‘100% of zero is zero’. So, as long as you played your part and you got an equitable piece of whatever’s available, keep it pushing.

WHAT IMPACT WILL AI HAVE ON YOUR WORLD?

I’m not worried. I went to engineering school, so I respect and love technology. I see how it will be a disruption in the industry, but that’s why we have to make it a point of duty to be as flexible as possible when it comes to creating.

“Somebody representing something that’s not you, but has all the hallmarks that are you, is a creative’s worst nightmare.”

I already see producers implementing AI into their production. If you embrace it, you won’t be left behind because people always still want that human touch, that human feel and the human representation behind it. But training models on other people’s work is kind of worrisome. Somebody representing something that’s not you, but has all the hallmarks that are you, is a creative’s worst nightmare.

I hope there’s some regulation that can be implemented as far as that’s concerned, but I’m thinking about the other uses of AI. I wouldn’t want to banish all AI, we need it if we’re going to figure out climate change or go to other planets. There’s no stopping that.

IF YOU COULD CHANGE ONE THING ABOUT TODAY’S MUSIC INDUSTRY, RIGHT HERE AND NOW, WHAT WOULD IT BE AND WHY?

I’d completely overhaul the business model of the industry. I don’t know who decided what and when all these things came into play but, as it stands right now, at least for kids that look like me, you don’t know what you have. You don’t know the value of owning the masters of your song, especially if your song is doing something.

Some of these labels swoop in and throw a bunch of things at you because you’ve never seen it before and, before you know it, it seems like the only option. And it’s not to the advantage of the artist. There are too many moving parts in this industry that aren’t defined on a day-to-day basis. I would make it more simple to understand.

WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE TREND FOR PEOPLE TO SELL THEIR CATALOGS?

It’s beautiful that you can create something that is worth so much money but the flipside is, if somebody’s willing to pay you $300m for your catalog, what return are they going to get? What do they know that we don’t, that they’re willing to spend this money now?

If somebody approached me with the right number to sell my catalog, 1000%, but I’m more interested in what it means to own something and try and hold onto it for as long as you can. I’ve had a few conversations but nothing that made me like, ‘OK, I need that’. I need to keep working, creating and building and, when the time is right, maybe. Or the time may never be right, we’ll see.

DO YOU HAVE ANY AMBITIONS LEFT TO ACHIEVE?

I’d be lying if I said having a commercially successful song isn’t important, because that’s how we sustain ourselves as creatives and musicians. It’s about the music, but I do want to get multiple No.1 records. I want Day ‘N’ Night to finally cross that Diamond threshold. I want to be able to say all these things just because the plaques are cool for decorative purposes, but I’m very content. The way I feel when I create, when I work with somebody and we’re creating something special, that’s the real reward for me.Music Business Worldwide